Thank You, Attacktivists, For Proving My Point

Aubrey Elle, the woman who dug up some poor woman’s phone number and started harassing her (and posted it in a group called Intactivists Stop Circumcision, calling on others to also harass the woman) via text message, wrote this lovely post proving my point.  Thank you, Aubrey Elle.  The fear is quite obvious in your post.  You attempt to hide it in sanctimony, but unfortunately you failed.

You might ask “who has time to worry about who other people, other ADULTS, are friends with?” Or maybe “who has time to dig up some poor woman’s phone because she used the word circumcision, and post it in a group to incite them to harass her?”.

Circumcision is not rape, it is not a crime, and it is not torture.  Circumcision is an unnecessary procedure, yes.  A crime? No.  If you believe it is a crime how about you call the police and let them know about the “illegal” circumcision?  It’s not a crime.  Or let them know about all the “rapes” and “torture” being perpetrated in the hospital? Still no? Yeah.  I figured.

Aubrey, disagreement is not a personal attack.  Having a different opinion doesn’t make someone a bad person. And holding these preconceived notions about someone because they want to circumcise their children just leads you to be an ineffective advocate.

People who circumcise their children love their children just as much as people who don’t.   They are either uninformed or they came to a different conclusion.  It is definitely possible to change minds.  It’s even possible to change someone’s mind if they circumcised their first.  Intactivists call them regret parents.  But the funny thing is, they attack people who have had the conversation with their adult son, and quit flagellating themselves.  The issue is a personal one, between that parent and their son.  To demand lifelong gut wrenching, depressing, even perpetual self-victimizing is counterintuative and pointless.

But back to what I was saying earlier, circumcising parents love their children just as much.  And many people can be educated and talked to and will change their minds.  However, if you use ineffective words or incorrect information…and the hyperbole that is oozing out of your post, you’ve lost more than you could have won.  It’s a bad plan.  And then to blame it on them and use that as an excuse to rage at them? It’s unhealthy to keep stoking your own rage.  I understand it’s supposed to ‘prove’ how much circumcision disgusts you, but it just damages you. And damages the cause you are supposed to hold so dear.  That rage is all ego.  It has nothing to do with ending circumcision.

So..drop the ego.  Make it an actual priority to end circumcision instead of gossiping about people in closed groups.  Come out of the shadow.  You can help end circumcision, or you can continue with your misguided attacks.  Against us.  Against other anti-circumcision advocates.  And against the parents who don’t immediately change their mind and agree (that’s lazy, by the way…to expect people to watch a YouTube video and change their mind immediately).

In the meantime, might I suggest you check out the link on my previous post?

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24 responses to “Thank You, Attacktivists, For Proving My Point

  • Jennifer Doe

    Are there any organised groups against Brother K and his non-profit organization the bloodstained men? If so I would like to join one.

    • paper0airplane

      No idea. At this point the movement is what it is and despite efforts to try to point out the flaws and issues it’s only gotten worse and more extreme. It seems pretty pointless as its simply an escalating series of behaviors that are counterproductive. I tried though.

  • subfindertaipei

    I also want to add that the most hurtful thing I was told was that I didn’t love my son. That got to me. Everything I do for my son is out of love, but one person was so determined that circumcision is wrong that she told me that my son would have been better off without his father than without his foreskin. That’s when I realized that I was trying to have a rational discussion with an irrational person.

    • paper0airplane

      Yes it is very difficult to hear someone when they are being hateful to you. Irrespective of your choice, you’re a human, and trying to do the best for your son who you love. Nobody does it because they want to hurt their child.

      A dialogue leaves the way open for someone to change their mind. A monologue only leaves the way open for someone to completely disregard what you said.

    • Jeremy Miller

      I for one feel id be better off without a father then without my foreskin, then again I’m autistic, and blame it on my circumcision

      And no, your not changing my mind on this.

  • subfindertaipei

    Thank you so much for this blog. A few weeks ago, I left a comment on a video about circumcision. I had no idea what intactivism was at the time. The response I got was unbelievable just because I said my son didn’t cry when he was circumcised. I was called a liar, a child abuser and a moron. Like you, I don’t condone circumcision (my husband insisted on it), but some of their claims were just outrageous.
    I’m not saying that the pro circ arguments were any better. There was a lot of name calling and personal attacks going both ways. It was far from a rational internet discussion. I didn’t agree with the pro circ comments, but I didn’t agree with the intactivist comments either. If anything, I’m more accepting of circumcision because of my encounter with intactivists.
    I’m still figuring out where I stand on this issue, but I will NOT be discussing it with any more intactivists.

    • paper0airplane

      Yes it’s one of the reason I moderate comments on my blog (which I’m sure sucks for some because it can take months for me to get to them). I don’t want to leave people to deal with the wolves on their own. There are only a very few comments I don’t publish, so it’s not cause I’m trying to censorship censorship. Though it is my blog and I could, and funnily enough, I’ve often been blocked from commenting on intactivist pages…oh well. But yes you should have the ability to have a reasonable discussion about the topic instead of a rabid dog pile humping your face.

  • aweasome101101

    I’ve been reading a couple of these blogs last few minutes and I’m apalled at all these so called “activist” and their over exaggeration of everything. For one I believe it’s the parents duty (since they brought the baby to this world and the mother carried for a few months) to decide whether or not their child should be circumcised. There’s the obvious health benefits, really no major negative effective in most cases. What we all failed to mention is that we all dong have the same part. Meaning everyone chemical composition(DNA) is different, so to point out one person should do this or that is ridiculous and ignorant. I recently circumcised at age 27 and all I wish is that I would have done it sooner. The constant sensitivity/pain, tight ring, super sensitive frenulum made everything a lot more difficult. No way I would want my son to have the chance to experience those things if I can change it with cirmcusion, no different than wanting a better life for them.
    Furthermore I don’t understand how can people can be so extreme about something without knowing what is like to deal with certain issues, I would start with females they have no idea what is like to have a penus and difficulties it can bring. As for dudes it’s the same thing, its the same body part but different cell parameters. Some have extremely more skin, more/less sensitively, so I find hard for someone to speak on something that can be so general.

    These extremist would find any babble to “back” their claims.. Such as “it’s all about the money” to sell the foreskin. Hello lets not be idiots and naive its always been like that, for every proffesion. Do you really believe everyone needs to go every 6 months to a year for a blood test? Do you know where/what your blood is used for? Or when a doctor tells you lets take a cautionary CT scan or X-ray just to conjure up some funds. If that’s the case we can make an argument about anything and say it’s all about the money…
    I do hear out the “Wait till age of consent” argument also, but again you don’t know people’s economic status. Circumcisions at a later age are highly highly expensive if you want a decent work done and maybe some general anesthesia at the local hospital. I just think all this needs to stop there’s farther farther worse birth defects that people should be writing about , venting their frustrations out and advocating for something that’s life threatening, not circumcusion. Circumcised or not, it’s not he end of the world. These idiotic rambling about “The rest of the world” doesn’t do it, then go live there, it’s just different traditions. I’ve been to different places in Europe and from what I hear from woman is that guys smell pretty bad over there and don’t shower as much, so does it mean we need to “follow” that culture? Yea I thought so.

  • notyourstocut

    Do you consider strapping a little girl to a board and cutting off part of her vulva “torture”?

  • Lawrence Newman

    Forced circumcision is FAR worse than rape. I know as I was circumcised as a teen after experiencing my primary erogenous organ, so I know what it does. It removes all sexual pleasure when you have a periah circumcision (the most common form).

    Ask 100 women if they’d rather have an unsolicited penis in their vagina for 15 minutes or have their vulva cut off. When all 100 women say they’d rather be raped than be mutilated, you’ve just had your claim that circumcision is more trivial than rape disproven.

    • paper0airplane

      Considering the David J Bernstein and his emulators, I’m afraid I often have trouble with the Angry Cut Man rhetoric. Especially when it’s equivocating circumcision with the removal of a woman’s vulva (outer sex organ) entirely.

      There are also many uncircumcised men who really don’t feel as though their foreskin is anything special or is at all sexually sensitive. It seems to vary pretty widely from man to man.

      You’re also making a case against circumcision, which isn’t necessary toward me; I’m anti circumcision. My problem isn’t that I think circumcision should be done for all, rather that intactivism has many problems it needs to address, one of them being factually inaccurate statements. Others being poor quality studies done by the same biased men, the loss of efficacy due to aggressively violent, even threatening language, and the alienation of people who are asking about it. If someone says “it’s cleaner healthier looks better” that means that’s what they’ve heard their entire lives. It’s not the advocates place to judge them, but to give them facts and evidence in a reasonable manner.

  • Dont Cuttum

    “Make it an actual priority to end circumcision instead of gossiping about people in closed groups.”

    Why dont you take your own advice and stop making blog posts, public & private group posts about other intactivists and go end circumcision.

    Your position is to be nice & gentle to parents, give them information but ultimately live and let live. Again, take your own advice then and stop attacking intactivists, stealing their posts and making these ridiculous blog posts about them. Why not gently suggest your way and back off it they don’t agree? Stop pretending to care about the cause and go troll somewhere else.

    • paper0airplane

      I know change is painful. But while I do talk to people and change minds, I really believe it is all for naught when intactivism is such a shitshow. So once this stupid shit ends (and it’s about more than interpersonal drama, no matter what Aubrey posted in her furious little rant), and it will, then I’ll be done. Easy peasy. Cut the shit and I go away.

      Oops whole reply didn’t post
      I AM gentle compared to what attacktivists do. I also don’t spam my links or even advertise my blog at all. I don’t message other people. People literally have to come here to read or interact. And even still, I’m not as aggressive.

      But…in a way it’s kind of funny. I mean…aren’t you validating what I’m saying? Lol. And that’s without me being as vile and aggressive. Just kinda sitting in my own little corner of the internet.

      I might just point out that I really don’t think going one on one is as effective as improving the anti circ movement. Honestly, attacktivism has no future. This is how I’m ending circumcision. So, thanks for your advice but…I’m already doing it.

      • Lawrence Newman

        If intactivism is a shitshow, you’ve just called anti-FGM campaigners part of a shitshow because they do exactly the same things.

        If a child was being sexually abused , you’d have no issue with people using these tactics, but because they are slicing off boys’ primary erogenous organ, we just need to use reason and dialogue apparently.

        You clearly don’t have the first clue about how damaging circumcision it. The fact you don’t think it’s rape or torture exposes how ignorant you are. IT’s torture during the act as the baby will be screaming in pain, and it’s torture for life as you are sexually frustrated for life due to no sexual pleasure. Worse than rape.

        As someone who was mutilated in my teens and whose life it destroyed, I can say with certitude that I’d have rather been gangraped as a teen. I’f have got over that. I can’t get over having no feeling in my dick.

        • paper0airplane

          I’m very well informed about circumcision. Words like mutilation are not fact based but emotional and opinion based.

          Your evaluation comes from a place of zealous loathing. That’s fine. Everyone gets to have an opinion. What I’m telling you (general re: intactivism) is that the way you communicate with people matters. It makes a difference. A huge difference. But everything is so polarized these days that people have started identifying their issues with themselves, and so disagreement is a personal attack, in such a view.

          FGM advocates are the one that left the very lasting impression that all FGC, down to a small ceremonial knick or prick, is a horrid abomination. It’s paradoxical to hold that view and think circumcision of males is less invasive or with a lower potential for damage than a knick or prick that removes so little tissue it’s difficult to see or doesn’t remove any tissue at all. That makes no sense. But that’s what happens when advocates use emotionally evocative, yet erroneous, language or techniques. They also left people with the lasting but erroneous belief that all FGM is excision and infibulation. Or that all types of FGM leave a woman unable to enjoy sex. Intactivists would like to leave the same impression regarding male circumcision. I find anti and pro both commonly exaggerate in an equal yet opposite fashion. One side says it enhances, protects and infers humongous health benefits. The other that it’s torture, rape, betrayal and has no and can never have health benefits. The truth is it has small benefits, smaller risks (as currently available reliable science suggests. I suspect most adult men don’t talk about some of their issues and so the real long term risks are almost certainly underrepresented), and is unnecessary.

          However, intactivists have taken a very self defeating approach of claiming that anyone who doesn’t parrot the approved “rape torture mutilation ripped skinned dick” line, acknowledges the real though small benefits, and points out flaws within the advocacy is a “cutter” or something even worse. I don’t have circumcised children, I’ve advocated against circumcision. But I see real problems in the movement. Problems that I feel are going to set back the eventual demise of non-religious, non-medical circumcision.

          If you can’t critically evaluate your own advocacy you will never improve it, because you are working off the erroneous assumption that the advocacy is perfect it’s all the people it’s failed to convince that are responsible. Further, if you spend all your time in echo chambers where everyone is patting everyone else on the back about the awful cutters, and ignore everything anyone with a different opinion says, you are only exposed to your own opinion being mirrored back at you.

          • Mike

            What do you think of protesting the AAP?

          • paper0airplane

            I originally thought it was stupid and actually still may. But I DO think that the point of science is to question everything and not hold onto tired and stupid practices just for traditions sake. That’s literally what science is…questioning. well doctors are who people trust for health advice and I think anti circ need to have CALM and RATIONAL people talking to doctors to get theme to question not by doxxing and harassing them on brother k’s page but by having rational debates with good stats and info not a memefest dog pile with slavering attacktivists. I think those people are holding the movement back so so so so badly.

          • Jeremy Miller

            People thought Abolishnists, were “Extreme” and “Radical” back in their day. And Jennifer theirs plenty of PPC nut Jobs out there, but most organized groups have high turn over rates, as they move back under their bridges, or go out to eat the bill goat gruff.

          • paper0airplane

            Yes I know you clearly love the comparison to slavery but I really don’t think it flies. And your fellow advocates hog tie themselves with their attitudes and bad information. So…

            Some of the ppc do great work. Others are just as bad as the people I used to fight against on here. And I wish they’d not.

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